Amen, you are preachin to the choir on this one. As I have commented before, customs often radically reduce the ROI and set expectations that cause problems in the long run. It is tough to turn down a job in this economy, but some partners have lost their business in good times with these problems. If the customer will not back down, try moving the initiative to a second or later phase. "Try it you'll like" pitch may get you the reprieve to get the project going where it should. Then pad the estimate to make sure you are covered and profitiable upfront, because this is the real exposure for turning a project unprofitable. Besides transfer the risk of the actual cost to the client, they may say that it is working okay as is and not worth the cost. Clark